Jerome Tijssen from Accountable on Real-Time Verification for Digital Assets

[00:00:00] Jerome: The bigger picture for Accountable is to have a widely spread network or ecosystem that proves the financial health of your counterparty based on data coming directly from the source, of course.

[00:00:12] Umar: Accountable allows institutions to prove their assets and liabilities in real time and privately without revealing their API keys, wallet addresses, or trading strategies.

[00:00:24] Umar: That's their Data Verification Network.

[00:00:26] Umar: It might just be the missing trust layer that finally convinces the masses to adopt blockchain technology.

[00:00:33] Umar: To date, they've verified over two billion in onchain assets across more than 60 partners, including Keyrock, RockawayX, Amber, K3 Capital, and Galaxy Digital, a publicly listed firm.

[00:00:48] Umar: Jerome Tijssen, CFO at Accountable, joins us to help us understand real-time verification for digital assets.

[00:00:56] Umar: Welcome to The Accountant Quits podcast, where we help accounting and finance professionals learn how to manage a business using crypto.

[00:01:05] Umar: On this episode with Jerome, we discuss Accountable's Data Verification Network, vault-as-a-service, the bigger opportunity for tokenization, a continuously verified NAV in real time, the Accountable ledger and how it compares to current subledgers, and much more.

[00:01:26] Umar: The Accountant Quits is the official podcast of the Onchain Finance Institute, the leading educational provider for finance teams using digital assets. Their programs, the Crypto Accounting Academy and Crypto Treasury Management Academy, focus on practical knowledge, including tools required to work with digital assets.

[00:01:47] Umar: Inside their platform, you can also connect with peers working in web3, join focused chat groups, access job opportunities, and attend practical workshops on onchain finance.

[00:01:59] Umar: You can join the community for free by heading to onchainfinanceinstitute.com/community. The link is also in the show notes.

[00:02:07] Umar: Now let's get into my conversation with Jerome.

[00:02:15] Umar: Jerome, welcome to the show, and thanks for making the time to be here.

[00:02:20] Jerome: My pleasure, and thanks for having me, Umar.

[00:02:24] Umar: Before we go into Accountable, Jerome, and real-time verification, which is, like, the main topic for today, could you please share how you got into digital assets and maybe the story of your first web3 job at Maven 11?

[00:02:40] Jerome: Yeah, of course. My crypto journey or, my first job in web3 started when I was approached by the CEO of Maven 11 back in late '23, in which he asked me to, join his team as a Group Finance manager. And as a little bit of context for the listener, Maven 11 is one of the biggest, crypto VCs in Europe.

[00:03:06] Jerome: And besides that, it also has multiple other, business ventures. So I did not have any experience with crypto whatsoever, never bought any Bitcoin, nothing. So before I knew it, I was in a room full of crypto native people talking about, securities or tokenization or other aspects of the digital asset, industry.

[00:03:30] Jerome: So it went from zero to one hundred in one day, and it was a pre-- proper deep dive into the technology, which was, at least to me, very exciting because I like new technology. and it was especially, challenging for me because, Maven 11 at that time did not have the appropriate technology in place, to maintain, companies like this because they adopted, for instance, digital asset settlements with- within these companies, really early.

[00:04:02] Jerome: So luckily for me, that was about the time that proper subledgers, came to the market. So that saved my day, and I immediately started with that. And, during my work at Maven 11, they started a little project, now called Accountable, together with a former colleague, Wojtek Pawlowski, now CEO, and Ioan Moldovan, now CTO, who is the mastermind behind our beautiful technology.

[00:04:33] Jerome: So I was involved from the start, but I only, joined full-time by the start of this year

[00:04:39] Umar: Thank you for sharing, Jerome. Now, the title of the episode today is Real-Time Verification for Digital Assets, and I wanna start the episode by having an understanding of what Accountable is.

[00:04:52] Umar: So as I understand, Accountable lets institutions prove their assets and liabilities in real time and privately.

[00:05:03] Umar: Now, so these are two very important words that I want to actually go through, so real time and privately. The counterparties can show they're financially healthy, but they don't have to expose some of the private information like their API keys, wallet addresses, trading strategies. What I've just described is Accountable's data verification network.

[00:05:27] Umar: That's their main product. Could you explain Accountable in your own words, Jerome? And if it's helpful for the listeners to better understand, could you provide us with an example here?

[00:05:38] Jerome: Yes, of course. And let me try to explain what we do in my own words, because also for me, it can be quite technical.

[00:05:46] Jerome: But, to me, Accountable is all about proof, and the way I see it, we could be the financial auditor of the future. So you can tell people that you have certain assets, or you have certain collateral, or that you are generating X amount of yield, but can you actually prove it? And as you just described, DeFi used to run on trust, right?

[00:06:10] Jerome: You just had these self-reported documents saying that everything is fine, your funds are, are safe. What we are doing with Accountable is, lets you prove that you actually, have these assets and that you are actually generating yield for your clients. So let's take, for example, yield bearing stablecoins.

[00:06:36] Jerome: When you as an investor or a user start minting these stablecoins, you need certainty that the value of these stablecoins is backed by financially healthy positions. So if these assets are backed by US Treasuries, for example, I think that's the most simple one, you want proof that this issuer has a custodian and that that custodian is holding enough treasuries to back the value of these tokens in circulation.

[00:07:05] Jerome: But on the other hand, you have the issuer itself that is not willing to, give insights in his secret sauce as, uh, the CEO always calls it, the company's secret. So, the issuer is not willing to share his strategies, so how he's making yield.

[00:07:25] Umar: So as a follow-up question, when you were describing this, is this like a proof of reserves that you're providing because I understand it's not only proof of reserves, it's also, as you call it, like proof of solvency.

[00:07:41] Jerome: Uh, you are totally right. So, a proof of reserves is only part of the puzzle, right? - It's easy to prove that you have reserves in place that backs the value of the token.

[00:07:51] Jerome: It's good that you mentioned it, but it's also possible that there are liabilities involved, and that's where it becomes more interesting, right? Because are you actually solvent? And that's what we can do, as Accountable. It's not only, prove that you have certain assets on a certain account, but also combine it, combine this with liability, the liability side of your balance sheet, which is really important to, to prove to your investors or depositors that you have, that you are solvent

[00:08:24] Umar: Okay, so those two words I mentioned earlier when I was describing Accountable is Accountable lets institution prove their assets and liabilities in real time and privately.

[00:08:35] Umar: So I want to go through that private component now. So every participant, they would run a local Accountable node, which enables peer-to-peer data sharing. The network is private, it's trustless, and it's also permissioned at the same time. Could you walk us through how data is shared in real time and how at the same time, like, these organizations can retain control on their privacy?

[00:09:03] Jerome: Yes. So it all starts with us as Accountable developing and setting up these so-called connectors, connecting our software, or as you just rightfully mentioned, the Accountable node to the venues that our clients are using, using API keys, for example. So it can be exchanges, custodians, on-chain wallets, brokerage accounts, normal bank accounts, can be anything.

[00:09:31] Jerome: Once the setup is done, we are handing over the keys to the Accountable node to our clients. That means that the Accountable node is running locally on the machine of the client itself. So Accountable is not seeing any data, and it's not storing any data. It's only seeing proof that the data is real, with the use of cryptographic proofs or ZK-proofs. And all clients all together running all these nodes collectively form a privacy preserving network.

[00:10:11] Jerome: And within this network, these nodes, nodes can communicate with each other. So for example, and our CEO, Wojtek, is always using this example to explain what I mean with this, with this network. So for example, when you have Wintermute, and Wintermute wants to borrow, funds. So he's going to lender number one and is asking for a ten million loan.

[00:10:35] Jerome: And he's using the Accountable node to prove that he has the collateral in place to back that loan. And let's pretend that Wintermute will after that go to lender number two and is also asking for a ten million loan. But he decides to use this very same collateral to back the second loan as well.

[00:11:01] Jerome: When this happens, and we have the Accountable nodes running in, in our network, Wintermute in this particular example will be exposed for using collateral twice, which ends up in a very bad loan, of course

[00:11:18] Umar: Now Accountable's ecosystem spans across different verticals, asset managers, risk curators, stablecoin issuers, um, and I want to go through some of these use cases.

[00:11:30] Umar: To date, I can see you verified more than two billion, assets on chain. Maybe the first use case that I was thinking to go through is, I believe, one of your first clients, which is Galaxy Digital, and it's a company listed on NASDAQ as well.

[00:11:45] Jerome: Yep.

[00:11:45] Umar: So their use case here is on tokenized collateral loan obligations.

[00:11:51] Umar: Maybe without making it very technical to understand, could you walk us through maybe how a conventional CLO or collateralized loan obligation works, the in-- the reports investors receive, and what changes then with Accountable when, Galaxy would be running the node?

[00:12:12] Jerome: Yeah. So a CLO, as far as, as we understand it, is, is, is pooling loans together and, and sell it to, to investors.

[00:12:21] Jerome: And the, the, the big difference, I think, between, the Tradfi the CLO that we did with Galaxy is that, with traditional CLOs, you will receive, as an investor, reporting every month or every quarter. And that reporting is always outdated. It's already old, and that's different from Accountable because with Accountable we can verify the assets, live, and again, the data is verified.

[00:12:52] Jerome: That also means that, whatever happens, in a good way or in a bad way, you will be able to act faster as an investor because you have the most accurate data because it normally refreshes every 15 minutes or so

[00:13:09] Umar: Are there some other use cases across the ecosystem worth providing an explanation on? So we went through loans, we went through stablecoin issuers Are there any other examples that you think it would be helpful for the listeners to understand?

[00:13:27] Jerome: Yeah. I think one of the biggest use cases, of course, is the vaults itself, right?

[00:13:32] Jerome: Because then this, this enables, I would say, the masses to join this technology and, and actually use it. So... And that was also in your document. The next use case is the Accountable vault, right? Or the vault as a service. But yeah. I'm so into vaults these days, that I'm not that, not that much focusing on, on DVN itself.

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[00:15:19] Umar: All right. So- Yeah ... uh, if I may interrupt you, Jerome. Sure. Yeah. Let's go through the vault as a service use case. Yes. Mm-hmm. Now, for the listeners, I just wanna provide a very quick refresher on onchain vaults, even it's a term that we're hearing all the time these days.

[00:15:36] Umar: But onchain vaults are basically automated asset management on top of lending protocols. They would let a curator or a risk manager allocate funds across different strategies, and the depositors in return, they would hold, you know, a share token that appreciates over time. It's analogous to how units work with funds.

[00:16:00] Umar: So you have the infrastructure layer protocols like Morpho or Veda. They provide the smart contracts that hold the money and let it be lent out or deployed. And then you have this curator layer, these teams that build vaults on top of that infrastructure, and they select, like, which collateral markets to allocate to and how to manage risk on behalf of depositors.

[00:16:26] Umar: Now, the key idea with onchain vaults is these vaults are non-custodial, and the depositors, they are trusting the curator's strategies, and they are not managing the allocation themselves. Now, this is maybe the premise of onchain vaults.

[00:16:42] Umar: Can you explain your product vault as a service? I understand maybe it's a bit different to what I've currently explained around onchain vaults.

[00:16:51] Jerome: Well, I, I don't know if it's that different. I think when you look from the outside, our vaults might look similar to, to vaults that are, being operated on Morpho, for example. But, in our case, and that's the, the biggest difference, I think, is that it's built on top of our DVN, our Data Verification Network.

[00:17:13] Jerome: So with our vaults as a service, our client, let's, let's call them an asset manager, can launch their own vault by themselves, set their own terms, and go to market with it, to our own marketplace, our yield app, or they can use it on their own platform, for example. But the asset manager is always, using the DVN, technology on top.

[00:17:40] Jerome: So that means that, i- it can also prove to its, uh, depositors that the assets are safe, and it can also prove that it's actually, making up his promise by generating the, the yield that he's promising

[00:17:56] Umar: So Accountable also has that infrastructure layer that, for example, Morpho and Veda has.

[00:18:02] Jerome: Yes, we are developing our own smart contract. So yes, we are a, technology provider. We are not legally speaking a party, between the asset manager and the depositor, but we are providing the full technology to launch your own vault with our, audited, of course, smart contract.

[00:18:22] Umar: Could you maybe go through some of the different use cases of the vaults that you're providing? And I understand you also have different types of vaults.

[00:18:31] Jerome: Yeah. So, let's start with the type of vaults. I think that's, uh, a good way to start. So we started months ago, very late in 2025, with so-called credit vaults.

[00:18:42] Jerome: So, the depositor comes to our platform, to our yield app, for example. He connects his wallet, and the first thing he does is signing, a loan agreement with the asset manager. He signs it onchain, and then he can make his deposit. So it's a very simple loan, I would say, and, the asset manager has the option to change the rate or yield from time to time.

[00:19:09] Jerome: So that's number one. Since a couple of months, we also have the so-called NAV vault, which could look from the outside more or less like an investment fund because then it's not a loan anymore bec-- and it is you are putting in capital, and the asset manager is operating strategies, but you can also lose your money, of course.

[00:19:30] Jerome: In terms of use cases, it's, it's very widespread, and we see a lot of, combinations or hybrids of, of, of variants between, the blockchain industry, but also to the TradFi world. So, we see asset managers borrowing funds with one of our vaults, but operating strategies with buying and selling gold, for example yeah, that's about it, I guess.

[00:19:56] Umar: Thanks for sharing. Now, I want to go through one of your other product, which is Accountable NAV. You did mention NAV before, but I think this is a completely different product. So a lot of our listeners will be familiar with, you know, how NAV is calculated for a fund. Just you would take the total value of asset, you would subtract liability, subtract any fund manager, performance fees, divide that by the number of outstanding shares units, you get the NAV.

[00:20:26] Umar: In tradfi, this is not done in real time. The process is quite manual, and you would do it like weekly, monthly. But with onchain vaults, you're dealing now with assets, of course, on numerous venues, from spot positions, perpetual futures on exchanges, different custodian balances, and different onchain positions across several networks, DeFi, et cetera.

[00:20:53] Umar: Now, Accountable NAV, it computes the net asset value for vaults and delivers it onchain as a verified feed. Can you walk us through how it works for accounting people to understand?

[00:21:07] Jerome: Well, first of all, back to DVN again. We are developing, the APIs ourselves, so we already, have the connections with all the venues that our clients, are using.

[00:21:20] Jerome: So therefore, we have, we know how to reconcile all the transactions and how to automate this, and that's how we can, do this way faster. And of course, with the use of the DVN technology, we can actually prove and verify that, the NAV is real because we were able to verify the assets, and the yield that is being generated.

[00:21:43] Jerome: And, what you said, we compute these NAVs, we publish it first, of course, to the asset manager. Sometimes he needs to add more data to it because not, uh, in the ideal world we all-- we have APIs with everything, right? And we can just pull all the data automatically all day long. But that's not reality, at least not yet.

[00:22:06] Jerome: So first NAV feeds are being published to our clients, and once he's done with it or he's, uh, once he's okay with it, he can hit the, the publication button, and then it's being published and the management fee or performance fee calculations take place

[00:22:24] Umar: All right, so there's a second product which we'll go through in a bit, the Accountable Ledger, but I just wanted to spend some time on tokenization and the bigger opportunity that we have.

[00:22:35] Umar: When we launched this podcast back in 2021, we were mainly speaking to crypto native finance professionals, people who live in DeFi, who are used to moving funds across, you know, Compound, Uniswap, Aave, et cetera. TradFi don't view this as the opportunity. The opportunity for them is to move what they already do offchain and now put it onchain, right?

[00:22:59] Umar: Because now they have larger distribution, they can distribute this to the whole world. What you're building with Accountable to offer real-time verification through this private permissioned network seems to unlock this trillion-dollar opportunity for tokenization. Is privacy the thing standing between where tokenization is today and this trillion-dollar opportunity that we have?

[00:23:25] Umar: And what's the larger vision for Accountable here?

[00:23:28] Jerome: Yeah. Well, the short answer is yes, because in order to trust, you need proof. And I think most people are willing to provide this proof, but only if they, if they don't have to give up their privacy or their company secrets, as we discussed earlier. The bigger picture for Accountable is to have a widely spread network or ecosystem that proves the financial health of your counterparty based on data coming directly from the source, of course.

[00:23:57] Jerome: No matter how big or small you are, what the crypto space needs, in my opinion, is trust, because when you talk to people outside our little crypto bubble, people are, are still very hesitant to use the blockchain technology and even trust this industry. So with our technology, we hopefully convince the masses to adopt blockchain technology.

[00:24:26] Umar: Right. So moving on to the other product that you've built is Accountable Ledger. Now, I was very curious and interested to learn more about this because discussing subledgers is something that we often do on this podcast. So the Accountable Ledger, it requi- reconstructs a fund transaction history across different venues like CeFi, DeFi, TradFi, and every transaction generated has this balanced debit and credit.

[00:24:56] Umar: It can track cost basis through different cost basis methods. It maintains position, it handles realized and unrealized P&L, fee accruals, etc. We've covered subledgers many times on this show with companies like TRES, Cryptio, Bitwave, etc. Could you tell us a little bit more about Accountable Ledger and whether it's also a subledger?

[00:25:20] Jerome: Well, short answer again is yes. In essence, it's a subledger. And subledgers are the savior of financial people within this space. So yes, and it's-- the, the Accountable Ledger, at least for now, is, is very much focusing on, the, um, the vaults itself. But yes, it's, it's a subledger. But the, the... I would say the big difference between other subledgers out there is that the data, once again, proof, is, that we have this DVN technology proving that the transactions and the balances are actually real with the use of cryptographic proofs.

[00:25:59] Jerome: So, for example, I'm also using, I will not call any names here, but, uh, for internal purposes, and we still use other, subledgers, because they do wonders. But it's possible within these, subledgers to enter whatever data you want, right? It's not only extracting data onchain or from, APIs on exchanges or, or coming from custodians.

[00:26:23] Jerome: You can also add things manually. You can add whatever you want, and with our product that's not possible. When you're using Accountable Ledger, you can be sure that it's coming from the source and the data is real and not tampered or manipulated whatsoever

[00:26:38] Umar: Okay, so just a follow-up question then on Accountable Ledger.

[00:26:41] Umar: Who's using Accountable Ledger today? Do they already have a subledger, but they still are using the Accountable Ledger product, or they're skipping, you know, using TRES, Cryptio, Bitwave to use Accountable Ledger?

[00:26:54] Jerome: Yeah, right now we are working with design partners who are actively using the Accountable Ledger as we speak.

[00:27:00] Jerome: And, uh, yes, they are looking, Yeah, well, how the development of these products work is, is first that you are using it as a shadow admin, I would say, to make sure everything, is looking as expected. But, yes, they are looking to replace, their existing data feed with ours

[00:27:18] Umar: Now, I want to, to also go through pricing to help the listeners better understand what it means to run an Accountable node.

[00:27:28] Umar: What's the unit they're being charged on? Is it a subscription per data source connected, or could you better explain how does pricing work?

[00:27:37] Jerome: Well, it depends on the product, of course, but let's start with the DVN, the core of our business. That's basically a, a SaaS model, right? So it's a subscription-based, fee that you pay.

[00:27:48] Jerome: So it will be a flat fee monthly based on the amount of connectors. And it's different, with our Accountable Vaults as a Service because then we take a fee out of the fee that the manager, the asset manager is taking from its clients or its investors.

[00:28:08] Umar: So pricing is not based on how often, like, verification happens, right?

[00:28:13] Umar: I mean-

[00:28:14] Jerome: No, that's, that's, I would say rather easy to explain because the software is not running on our, server on or on our machines. The, the Accountable nodes are running on the, local machines of the client. So if there would be an expense for, running the Accountable node, it's on the client side that we do not see it as, as Accountable because, the software is not running on our machines.

[00:28:41] Umar: Now, I've got a last question, Jerome, which is, given that you're the CFO, you've worked now for a lot of years in web3, I wanted to go through some of the tech stack that you recommend for finance professionals who are just starting out with, you know, working with digital assets at their organizations.

[00:29:00] Umar: Do you have, like, a preferred tech stack, or maybe for clients using Accountable, what tools would you recommend them to onboard as soon as possible?

[00:29:09] Jerome: The obvious one is, start using a, subledger from day one. I am close to the TRES Finance team in my specific, in this specific case. But I think when you start in web3, this is absolutely mandatory and I high-highly recommend it, for, people working in finance, but also as a message to founders or, owners of, of these businesses to invest time and money into a proper stack of technology to operate as a web3 company because you will be pay, be paying the fine afterwards when you don't because it's so hard to, to go back in time.

[00:29:54] Jerome: So subledger is the, is, is the one and we are using TRES in combination with QuickBooks for accounting and that's, I would say the core. The other challenge in terms of, your tech stack, if it's really a tech stack, is payments. Especially a few years ago, it was especially hard to open a bank account, for a crypto company, right?

[00:30:17] Jerome: So I'm, I've experimented a lot with multiple, EMIs or, and, and, and payment platforms that are around. And yeah, I would encourage everyone to, yeah, to just try new things because the, the industry is developing, so much these days and things you can do trials for free. So, me myself are also doing a lot of trials with, with multiple platforms all the time.

[00:30:46] Jerome: But yeah, spend time and money on your core and core is accounting in combination with subledger. That's, that's, that keeps on going on that, and I repeat this every day, but that's, uh, that's absolutely, crucial for operating as a company.

[00:31:02] Umar: Do you have any, like, neo banks or companies with these EMI licenses to share?

[00:31:08] Jerome: Well, we just opened bank accounts with a platform called Meow. Don't know if you are familiar with it or, uh, one of the listeners, but, as a platform, at least to me, it looks too good to be true because there are no fees up front, and the, the platform does wonders. You can make international payments, you can do everything.

[00:31:29] Jerome: You can on- and off-ramp for free. It's doing wonders, and it has a great integration with accounting platforms like QuickBooks. So that's my recommendation in terms of payments because I just, onboarded with them and started using that platform. So that's one name I can mention that is, that is great.

[00:31:49] Jerome: And of course, very important and how can I forget about it? But custodians are extremely important, especially when you are having a lot of funds on your, on your wallets, right? When you did a fundraise, for example. So multisig is really important, so doesn't really matter if you go to Fireblocks, FORDEFI, or even Gnosis Safe, which we used, at the start when we tried to bootstrap this project.

[00:32:16] Jerome: So yeah, also, good to have that in mind.

[00:32:19] Umar: Thanks for sharing, Jerome. Yeah, I think the f- the listeners will be familiar with Meow. It's quite a popular, like, neo bank, which they didn't start with crypto initially, but they then developed their product, and they have a lot of crypto users now, or web3 users.

[00:32:35] Umar: Now, I think this brings us to the end of the episode, Jerome. As closing thoughts, the title of the episode today was Real-Time Verification for Digital Assets and the product you've built with Accountable. Is there anything that maybe we didn't touch on that you'd like to mention to the listeners? Or if not, how would you summarize this whole episode for the listeners?

[00:33:00] Jerome: Yeah. We have covered, I think, almost everything that we do. And again, I cannot repeat this, not enough, is that it's all about proof, right? And what we are trying to achieve is that we are the one-stop shop for asset managers, for example, to, have everything at one party. So what I also would like to mention is that we are also working on proper fund admin as well on top of the Accountable NAV and Accountable Ledger product, so that you have a one-stop shop for everything that you, that you need to operate your strategies.

[00:33:34] Umar: Yeah. I think Accountable will be a very important company that we'll keep hearing more and more in the future. Now, I always like to end the episode, Jerome, with asking my guests if they have a favorite quote or, like, a maxim that li- they live by. Would you have one?

[00:33:52] Jerome: Well, I just heard one a few weeks ago.

[00:33:54] Jerome: I think it's funny, but it's also somewhat true. Some of our clients, that I'm in contact with on a daily basis, said to me once, when something went wrong, and he told me, "Everything in crypto breaks all the time." And to date, I still feel that, the technology is still very new and can be sometimes be a bit fragile.

[00:34:18] Jerome: So, for now, that's my favorite quote.

[00:34:20] Umar: Perfect, Jerome. If people want to reach out to you, I mean, if you want to allow people to, to reach out to you- Of course ... or if they want to learn more, more about Accountable, where should they go?

[00:34:31] Jerome: They can go to the website, of course. They can send an email to jerome@accountable.capital.

[00:34:39] Jerome: And they can reach out to me on Telegram, of course. That's our main way of communicating to, clients as well, but also internally. So they can also reach out to me on Telegram.

[00:34:51] Umar: Fantastic. Jerome, it was a great conversation. Thanks a lot for your time, and we'll stay in touch.

[00:34:58] Jerome: Thank you so much. See you soon