Asset Management & Financial Reporting for DAOs with Jack Gale from kpk

[00:00:00] Jack: What we find more and more is projects pushing forward this kind of self custodial solutions, who at the same time don't actually wanna sit and manage like a hundred million dollar treasury. They want an agent who will support them and advise them, but they kind of want a bit of both. 

[00:00:14] Umar: This agent is kpk (formerly Karpatkey), a leading on chain asset manager providing asset management and financial solutions for DAOs.

[00:00:24] Umar: To date, they've managed over $1.5billion for web3 projects like Gnosis, Aave, ENS, dYdX, CoW, Balancer and more.

[00:00:35] Umar: Their non-custodial treasury solution combines Safe and Zodiac's battle-tested infrastructure to manage funds transparently and entirely on chain.

[00:00:45] Umar: To break down on chain asset management, financial reporting, and the future of DAO treasuries, I'm joined by Jack Gale, a core contributor at kpk and one of the sharpest minds in this space.

[00:00:58] Umar: And for today, we have a special treat for you guys. Jack will give us an inside look at the financial reports kpk has built, walking us through a real world use case featuring Beefy Finance and showing how they leverage Octav, a powerful data platform for tracking on chain activities.

[00:01:18] Umar: You are watching The Accountant Quits podcast, where we help accounting and finance professionals learn how to manage a business using crypto.

[00:01:27] Umar: Lastly, I'd really appreciate your support by liking this video and subscribing to our channel.

[00:01:33] Umar: Now, enjoy this rich conversation with Jack.

[00:01:36] Umar: Jack, welcome and thanks for taking the time to be here.

[00:01:40] Jack: It's great to be here. Thanks for having me Umar. 

[00:01:43] Umar: So for the listeners, if you're tuning in from Apple Podcast, this will be a different episode today because actually at the end of the episode, Jack will be sharing his screen and showing you how the financial reports that they've built in kpk actually looks like, and we'll go through one of the case studies of Beefy.

[00:02:04] Umar: So if you are watch listening to this episode right now, it would be perhaps better to listen to it either on Spotify or on YouTube so that you can actually see later when Jack will be sharing his screen, what we are talking about.

[00:02:19] Umar: So with that being said Jack, I'd like to start our conversation today with the topic of investment policies and a lot of today's conversation is actually grounded of on many of your excellent articles, and I'll be referencing them throughout and quoting where helpful for the listeners.

[00:02:39] Umar: So when it comes to ‘Architecting an Investment Policy’ for DAOs or other DeFi protocols, you highlight this recurring issue that in the excitement of deploying capital, DAOs often skip the foundational step of alignment, meaning that treasury managers are appointed, funds are deployed, performance is tracked, but when problems arise, no one takes ownership.

[00:03:05] Umar: Or as you put it, if there's a single piece of advice organization needs before embarking on on chain asset management, it's to get all your stakeholders, contributors, community members, investors on the same page.

[00:03:20] Umar: So that's why this document, this investment policy statement comes in. And I'd like to go through this with you.

[00:03:28] Umar: So in the context of decentralized organizations, what are the core components of an Investment Policy Statement (IPS) and yeah, what types of investment parameters would it usually include? 

[00:03:42] Jack: So I think some people are hearing the term like IPS investment policy statement for the first time and many people think this is something that we've invented at kpk or other kind of financial managers across the industry.

[00:03:55] Jack: But to be honest, it's a battle-tested institution for a lot of traditional finance and it's nothing new.

[00:04:03] Jack: It's about outlining the principles and the standards of a given organization's investment activities.

[00:04:09] Jack: So defining the roles, the powers, and the responsibilities that different people who are involved with investing their assets have. It's about establishing expectations and terms for internal roles, but also the external managers and stakeholders and ultimately it's about getting everyone on the same page about what investment goals and expectations this organization has.

[00:04:33] Jack: A lot of people I think in DeFi bank, you know, we've reinvented finance and, you know we've gotta reinvent all the best practices for ourselves. And there are definitely some differences in DeFi investment policies.

[00:04:44] Jack: But I wouldn't say that they're a huge revelationary thing. There's a lot of great content out there if you want to learn more about how to write them. But certainly in the context of kind of kpk and their work, there has been a process of kind of getting the industry up to speed with the benefits and some organizations have that to learn the hard way.

[00:05:01] Jack: But you know, when there's a dispute over whose responsibility a certain investment activity was or when there's a difference around expectations that wasn't sort of resolved in time before it was actually played out in practice it can be very difficult to then work back to what was the right standard and what should have happened and actually it's so much easier and more cost effective a lot of the time to sit down at the very start of your kind of investment process for an organization and to say what are these core roles and principles and goals that we have for ourselves? 

[00:05:31] Umar: So if there's like a DAO core, core contributor listening right now and they're realizing, oh, we don't have this investment policy statement and never heard about it, where should they start? What's like the core component that these IPS would usually include in the context of like crypto.

[00:05:49] Jack: So if you are starting from scratch and you're already kind of investing money in DeFi and you think, oh God, you know, what have we done? We haven't set up a plan in advance. We haven't talked about this at all. You know, that's okay. This happens a lot. I think what's really important is to start with a really honest process of kind of getting everything out.

[00:06:06] Jack: You know, you might have an organization where somebody led investments a while ago and now you're doing a different kind of deal and you know, the left arm doesn't really know what the right is doing. The IPS is as important for the process of getting that information out as it is for kind of setting the trend for the future.

[00:06:20] Jack: The first, first really important thing is just to have that kind of audit process of what are we doing? Where is our money? Can we get it all on one sheet? Can we define it as a balance sheet? And can we look at what our kind of inflows and outflows are? And only at that stage I think, can you really start to say, okay.

[00:06:34] Jack: We know where we are right now, where do we want to go in the future?

[00:06:38] Jack: In terms of the kind of core components, like a lot of these investment policy statements sort of start with the broad end defining the kind of principles and broad big picture thinking that a treasury, you know is looking towards, you know, we want to bolster the ecosystem around our product, not just earn yield.

[00:06:54] Jack: And so we're willing to invest funds and protocols that are aligned, what we do, not necessarily just whoever's got the highest return. And then throughout the policy statement, you find that it gradually kind of funnels down into much more specific principles. So that could be what kind of burn rate is acceptable for our treasury each year, or what kind of exposure to a particular asset is or isn't acceptable.

[00:07:16] Jack: Some will include a kind of white list of assets that they're willing to deal in or in the reverse selection of protocols or strategies that they don't want to engage with. But ultimately it very much depends on the organization as to how specific they want to take it. Some of the best examples recently have been very broad, very general in nature, and are much more about assessing the consensus where it's at, rather than defining the specifics of where we're going.

[00:07:41] Jack: A great example for that I think is the Ethereum Foundation, which happy to delve into a little bit more later on. 

[00:07:48] Umar: Sure. Okay. We can go through the Ethereum Foundation. So I believe in May 2025, kpk was asked by the Ethereum Foundation to serve as an advisor in the preparation of its long-term investment strategy.

[00:08:03] Umar: Now, as a nonprofit, the Ethereum Foundation, they have a unique challenge. They have to craft an investment policy that not only aligns with yeah, the board, contributors, but also resonates with the broader Ethereum community.

[00:08:18] Umar: So earlier this year, the foundation deployed 45,000 ETH from its treasury into several DeFi protocols and we'll speak more about your advisory services shortly, but I want to ask you, and I know that there's confidentiality of course, around this advisory work that you did with Ethereum Foundation, but could you share a bit more broadly about what kind of treasury constraints would typically look like?

[00:08:42] Umar: And which basically introduces an entirely new approach to IPS. 

[00:08:48] Jack: Yeah, absolutely. Like you said, there's confidentiality around it. So I'm not gonna go too far into the specifics of our, like kpk's role and work, but the work with the  Ethereum Foundation is extremely exciting because you're seeing this kind of bastion institution representing the whole industry, changing course quite significantly.

[00:09:04] Jack: And it's not that  Ethereum Foundation couldn't have gone into DeFi earlier or wasn't interested necessarily, but there's a lot of considerations for a large organization at the forefront of an industry and what they do and don't embrace. Inevitably sort of starting to move into DeFi is going to express some preference.

[00:09:22] Jack: It is going to make people ask why them and not them, why this product not that product? And it is gonna have a big impact and so the EF (Ethereum Foundation) you know, have been considering this for a while and came to us with a very thoughtful proposal of what they were planning to do and in looking through that and kind of helping to advise them, you know, usually we would say, we're kind of experts in this field and we have a lot to bring here and we're going to sort of tell you the right way to do this, in the wrong way to do this.

[00:09:46] Jack: But actually the Ethereum Foundation has really flipped kind of this idea of treasury management policies, investment policy statements on its head by making it really more about values and value alignment than about the specifics of what they are and aren't investing in or what they want to achieve.

[00:10:02] Jack: Now, there are components of their investment policy statement that do kind of set out some quite clear parameters. So I mentioned earlier about kind of burn rates. There's one in there which says that the Ethereum Foundation is targeting at the moment about a 15% rate of diminution, of its, its treasury assets.

[00:10:18] Jack: And that over time it will try to scale that back down to around about 5%, which is kind of reflective of where they're.

[00:10:24] Jack: So that is a clear, tangible policy that gives the industry an idea of what they're doing, what they're expecting, and what we should expect of them. But beyond that, they really start to broaden it out and say what is it gonna mean for the Ethereum Foundation to invest in DeFi?

[00:10:39] Jack: It's gonna mean that we are selecting protocols, we're selecting products that we feel reflect Ethereum and are helping our industry to grow, and that we want to support and we want to support us as a means of generating sort of sustainable yield and helping our finances and that's a huge, a huge thing, a huge statement.

[00:10:58] Jack: It's a thing to be celebrated as well to embrace protocols and say that they are Ethereum aligned, but the way that you do that obviously has to be a bit careful and they've done an excellent job defining this new kind of concept, which is DeFi Punk and that's a play on kind of cypherpunk values.

[00:11:13] Jack: But for DeFi, and it's a strong message that DeFi, you know, should not necessarily assume that because traditional finance is becoming more and more interested, the two are gonna merge and we're going to move on this direction of reflecting traditional financial practices.

[00:11:27] Jack: DeFi was made to be different. It was made to solve different problems, and those problems do really align with a lot of core cypherpunk values. Things like privacy, privacy, protecting civil liberties and so the Ethereum Foundation is saying, it's not wrong if you aren't embracing those core cypherpunk values, but the way that we really want to take this right now, at least to the Ethereum Foundation, is to embrace those, those organizations and those protocols that really are.

[00:11:51] Jack: And so we want to see organizations that have all of their contracts verified on chain. We want to see organizations that aren't asking for unnecessary user information to gain access to their services. We want to see organizations that are taking decentralization seriously and thinking about things like decentralized front ends.

[00:12:09] Jack: And the list kind of goes on at the back of their policy of all the different areas that they've sort of identified as key to their DeFi Punk vision.

[00:12:16] Jack: And so this policy is less now about kind of, this is specifically where we're gonna go and how we're gonna fill the gaps in what we want to achieve.

[00:12:22] Jack: And it's more kind of a clarion call to the industry to say, this is where we really think that the industry as a whole should go. Please everyone let us know how we're pushing this forwards, how you are pushing this forwards so that we can support you as part of this treasury management initiative.

[00:12:36] Jack: So total flip on its head to a lot of the other investment policies. Total flip on the head of TradFi and this is where now, where I think DeFi is really starting to carve out the term investment policy statement and make it something that will be, you know, distinct in the future for our industry.

[00:12:52] Umar: Now for the listeners, would you know if any of the IPS of these DAOs or other foundations are publicly available? Like if people wanna check it out and see how that looks like and how can they implement it at their companies? I mean at their organizations? 

[00:13:09] Jack: Yeah, absolutely. There's a lot of different investment policy statements that are available and out there.

[00:13:13] Jack: Some great examples that kpk has worked on ENS, Balancer as well as obviously the Ethereum Foundation Treasury policy.

[00:13:21] Umar: Now, Jack, so usually on these episodes, I ask the guests to share about what the company does usually at the end, but I think for the flow of our conversation today, I wanna bring this question a bit earlier. So, I mentioned in the intro that kpk is the largest on chain manager in web3 with approximately 1.8 billion in asset, under management for clients like Gnosis, Aave, ENS, Lido, Cow, dYdX, Balancer, and others.

[00:13:50] Umar: Could you provide the listeners with an overview of the services offered by kpk to these DAOs.

[00:13:56] Jack: Yeah, absolutely. So kpk is kind of actually two businesses underneath the hood. There's the one that everyone knows, which is the core asset management business, and then there is this developing business which builds technology products, which are meant to support asset management, but which up to date haven't really been particularly user facing.

[00:14:15] Jack: Instead, the core clients of that second business is the first business. But that may kind of change gradually over time. So I think for most users there's, there's definitely an interest in what is that first business and how does it work?

[00:14:26] Jack: What are the kind of core aspects of our service. One thing that set kpk apart is defining a really strong asset management methodology, which we bring to all of our different engagements.

[00:14:37] Jack: That's not saying that every DAO needs to be pigeonholed into the same structure and one size fits all, but it is saying that we've identified a lot of best practices across many different areas of asset management. And we bring that kind of expertise as a holistic framework for DAOs to engage in. So it's a long framework. There's a lot of detail to it, but just to kind of briefly sum it up, there's three core kind of sections to it.

[00:15:01] Jack: The first one is looking at values and scoping. Its financial planning, and it's basically taking into account where the DAO is and where it needs to go, or the organization is where it needs to go.

[00:15:12] Jack: The second part is the core operations, which we split into three components. There's the main sort of treasury management aspect. There is the security and infrastructure side, which is actually delivering the treasury management under the hood. And then there is kind of growth business development and ecosystem initiatives which is looking beyond just the assets you hold right now to where your business wants to go in the future.

[00:15:31] Jack: And then the final of the third chapter of our asset management methodology is all about governance, transparency and reporting. It's all about how we bring back the learnings from what we've done and how we inform communities and help them to make good decisions about treasury management, which then sort of restarts the cycle and moves to the beginning again.

[00:15:51] Jack: And that core framework appears across all of our engagements, whether it's you know we're researching for a particular organization, how they might want to mobilize their treasury, whether it's full service, treasury management across everything that an organization does, or even if it's just a specific kind of niche initiative within that.

[00:16:08] Jack: So that's the first business.

[00:16:09] Jack: The second business I won't go into too much because a lot of it is behind the scenes, but I think it's just important to understand that asset management is really complicated and it does require a lot of expertise. But the whole point of DeFi is that we can start to automate complex financial processes that have been a bit of a black box in, in history.

[00:16:28] Jack: And so what we're really trying to do is start breaking down that complexity and automating it, and producing products that reflect our best practices and asset management, but do it on a more kind of scalable and accessible level. I'll leave it down on that second part of the business, unless you've got questions about it.

[00:16:46] Umar: I also wanna ask you about the team behind Karpatkey and how did this company come about? Who are the founders behind? I'm sorry, I said Karpatkey that's the former name kpk. So who are the founders behind kpk? How did this company came about? Who was the first client you worked with? 

[00:17:04] Jack: So kpk was founded in early 2021.

[00:17:08] Jack: The initial founders, which are Marcelo Ruiz de Olano and Alejandro Romero are both Argentines, who were working in the Gnosis ecosystem and supporting core Ethereum infrastructure. Marcelo actually led open Ethereum, which maintained the ex Parity client which any kind of Ethereum folks will know.

[00:17:26] Jack: It was a critical decentralization component in 2019, 2020.

[00:17:30] Jack: And the two of them were looking at Gnosis and saying, how can we get more out of this DAO and this operation that we have going on? Why don't we start deploying things into DeFi? Why don't we start taking more opportunities?

[00:17:41] Jack: And they pitched that and succeeded and Gnosis was the first sort of DAO and decentralized organization that we'd seen, which really embraced treasury management as a core part of their operating activities led by the team that would then become kpk.

[00:17:56] Jack: And so after serving them for a few months, there's this realization that this is a very scalable business.

[00:18:01] Jack: It's, there's a lot of best practices and so the team decided to found Karpatkey as an entity, which could then pass on that expertise to others as well. We won a contract with ENS the same year as our kind of second major client, and then from there I expanded to a lot of others. I won't go through the full list.

[00:18:19] Umar: So I've seen it's a lot of DAOs. Right but you plan to or you already extending these services to other financial institutions and yeah how do you plan to scale this service? 

[00:18:29] Jack: Yeah. It's definitely already something that applies to a lot more than just DAOs. But because DAOs have this kind of governance orientation, everything they do, all of our DAO work has always been public, and so it's always been very well known how we interact with DAOs.

[00:18:42] Jack: But yeah, it's something that applies to all kinds of foundations, asset managers, family offices and more and more TradFi organizations coming into DeFi and looking for partners who know the ropes and can help them to get the best outta these opportunities.

[00:18:56] Jack: In terms of how does it scale?

[00:18:57] Jack: That's, That's an interesting question. Which is worth maybe a couple of minutes. So it does scale in the sense that if you are managing a million dollars and then somebody gives you another 6 million. You're deploying it across a few different strategies that can all scale in that extent. You can just plug in the remaining money and you don't increase your costs much for doing it as maybe a one time setup fee.

[00:19:17] Jack: But it doesn't necessarily scale infinitely. So for example, if somebody came in now and said, okay, we want to deploy, you know a hundred billion into DeFi, which is the size of DeFi already, we would cap out every single lending market. We would take up all the kind of liquidity to buy the assets that we want, and we would still probably be left with quite a decent amount of capital that couldn't yet be put to use how we'd want to.

[00:19:41] Jack: So scaling DeFi requires a lot more than just plug the money in go. And it's really our kind of mission to think about how we can grow the pie long term. And though we see asset management as something that the can scale, we think that moving it into a productized form is also a key move forwards for the industry.

[00:20:00] Jack: And that's also because not every organization is gonna have $20 million that they want to invest. Some will have a treasury of 1 million or a few hundred thousand and they still wanna activate it and use it, but they definitely don't need to hire a full on kind of private financial advisor to support them.

[00:20:17] Jack: And for those organizations, we want to build the kind of products that give access to best in class asset management without also costing an absolute arm and a leg and depriving them of the ability to operate their normal business. 

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[00:22:10] Umar: Perfect. I wanna go through the principle versus agent relationship for the non-custodial asset management part. So whether web2 or in web3, any organization's treasury should be structured to exist in perpetuity, right? So there should be frameworks that extend their operating runway to preserve their liquidity.

[00:22:31] Umar: In the case of web3, there's another one. It's also to reduce their reliance on selling their native token. By speaking with folks, in the industry, there's a recurring theme that comes up that a lot of web3 native projects they have on chain assets sitting idle, and they're not fully leveraging DeFi.

[00:22:50] Umar: So yeah, they're preaching something but maybe not fully living by it. So for those less familiar with the concept of an on chain asset manager, kpk acts as an agent, where the principle agent relationship plays out between the DAO stakeholders and the treasury manager, which is kpk. Can you walk us through how that principle agent relationship works in practice, especially around the governance and operational processes involved, and also the kind of tools that you'll be using?

[00:23:22] Jack: Yeah. So lemme start by like pushing it back a little bit. Within kind of DeFi and crypto. One of the core value propositions that we have is that we don't necessarily need everything to be led by principal agent relationships.

[00:23:38] Jack: In traditional finance, if you want to go and deploy a million dollars of your own funds into interesting investment products, and to generate a yield, you have to go through intermediaries who are licensed and regulated, and you have to pay all of them a fee and deal with the the delays that going through so many counterparties cause.

[00:23:58] Jack: And so one of the big things that people think when they think of DeFi is, great let's get rid of the principle agent relationship. We don't really need to rely on someone else. We can go and deploy all of our assets ourselves. The problem is just because you can manage your assets doesn't mean that you actually want to or should manage your own assets.

[00:24:16] Jack: And what we find more and more is that you can have fantastic projects pushing forward this kind of self custodial solutions that liberate people and get away from principal agent problems, who at the same time don't actually wanna sit and manage a hundred million dollar treasury.

[00:24:31] Jack: They want an agent who will support them and advise them, but they want a bit of both. They want to be able to retain self custody and not have to give up on those core crypto values, but they do want to support and help. And so when kpk was set up, we had this kind of a choice, a fork in the road.

[00:24:47] Jack: Which is around the time that we brought ENS on as a client which is we could go down the route of saying, okay, you want someone to manage, just give us your funds. We will take custody. We'll do things or we could go the other route and say, we're gonna respect yourself custody. We're gonna build new technology.

[00:25:02] Jack: It means that we are proposing transactions to you. We're helping you to deliver what you want, but you ultimately retain full control and we don't have any control other than the control that you give us and for us as a value aligned organization that really believed in Ethereum, we went down the second route.

[00:25:18] Jack: And it was very important for us to not take custody of any client funds and not to establish that traditional principle agent relationship and that's been a huge sort of value add for us. The way that we do it on a technical level is something that you mentioned earlier. It's roles or permissions on chain permissions.

[00:25:36] Jack: And this is basically just smart contracts which sit in between a manager and the funds that they might manage and defines very strict permissions about what the two can do between one another. So it might say you can deposit into Aave for USDC up to a certain number and that's all you can do. And if the manager tries to submit a transaction that exceeds that, then they won't be able to, the permission won't exist.

[00:26:03] Jack: And so they're blocked from any kind of role. And the way that the permissions are managed is that the managed Safe, the managed account is able to issue new permissions to that smart contract and change them over time. And this is really core to what we do because every transaction that KPK is putting forwards, all of the 10,000 that you mentioned earlier are actually as proposing something.

[00:26:25] Jack: That the DAO is then executing and orchestrating themselves. We can help them with pretty much everything up to, you know, pushing the button. But fundamentally, kpk does not take custody of funds. And so we're not in that classic kind of principle agent dichotomy.

[00:26:41] Jack: But to preface that and take it to the next level again we do find that even if there's not a technical principle agent dynamic in terms of the funds, there is a kind of social principle agent dynamic where a lot of organizations say, we don't know what's the best rate.

[00:26:55] Jack: We don't know what's the best product. We will take your advice. We don't have the time to kind of look into every decision to the same depth that you have. So we're happy with what you're telling us is the right way to go. And in that sense, we do need to take ourselves very seriously as an agent because if conflicts between our own interests and the organizations that we serve, their interests do arise, then we can end up, in a situation where there is a false trust and there is harm being created.

[00:27:20] Jack: And people might not be mindful of that because they think DeFi is permissionless. It doesn't have this kind of dynamic. So we do have strong policies. We do set things up very clearly, including in investment policy statements as to how that relationship is gonna work. But fundamentally, it is a perpetual struggle to remind organizations that you're an advisor, you're trying to help them, but ultimately they need to look after their own interests and make their own decisions.

[00:27:45] Jack: But we think we, we've done a good job with kind of leading industry organizations and we hope that we can set standards for how others will act in the same way and move beyond this classic, you know, there's no principle agent in DeFi, which is just not right. 

[00:27:58] Umar: I'm thinking if we can provide the listeners just like a flow of how this would work, but maybe, I'm trying to be too simplistic, but I'm trying to think.

[00:28:08] Umar: Let's say a proposal has been passed on Snapshot by the community to invest for the sake of this example, a million into Aave and kpk is the treasury manager. How would that work from the moment the proposal has been passed until it's it's been deployed into Aave or, other DeFi protocols.

[00:28:29] Jack: So this can vary a lot depending on what the organization wants and needs. At the most extreme end, organizations might say we don't want any kind of middleman. We want you to provide the logic for the transaction, and then we wanna execute the vote and when the votes passed, just execute the transaction immediately.

[00:28:44] Jack: That's completely possible with modern kind of Snapshot, Tally tools. So we do do that in some cases. In other cases, we have DAOs that kind of have social votes and they're saying, okay, well we wanna create a fund of 10 million that's devoted to these kinds of ecosystem projects. We dunno how you figure out the execution.

[00:29:01] Jack: We're gonna give kpk a broad mandate to go and do that. And in those kind of scenarios, you know, there is a big transparency and reporting element where we need to be in touch with the community and making sure that we align with their expectations. But we also have a lot of discretion that we need to manage.

[00:29:16] Jack: But I think our, like most common setup is somewhere in the middle. I mentioned before about permissions and often we will have DAOs that are voting on packages of new permissions for kpk. So we might say, you know, we want to expand and look into Morpho products. Let's pass a package of permissions through governance, which enabled us to then go out and look at Morpho positions and invest in them for you and the DAO might pass that governance proposal.

[00:29:41] Jack: After that kpk has the ability to submit those transactions to the onchain permissions for the DAOs treasury to invest in. We can do them at any time and we can adjust the strategy so that we're trying to get optimal execution for them. Fundamentally, it's both sides working in tandem. You have governance saying, we wanna do this.

[00:29:59] Jack: You have kpk saying this is how, and then you have the DAO kind of executing and saying, yes, we agree. Let's do it. That's our kind of optimal model. 

[00:30:07] Umar: I know you already went through permissions and roles while preparing this episode, I understand you are leveraging Zodiac, which is a tool developed by Gnosis Guild. Could you go a little bit more into detail about yeah. How users can assign granular permissions to other accounts to act on their behalf?

[00:30:27] Jack: Yeah, absolutely. So what I've described before about the kind of permission smart contract and how that sits at the center of all of our relationships, that is really what Zodiac Roles Modifier is. It's a smart contract that you can configure to do any kind of on chain interaction with a smart contract and constrain it in whatever way you like.

[00:30:46] Jack: It accepts complete kind of arbitrary logic, and it really wasn't even designed for treasury management. It was designed actually for governance operations so that DAOs could say, okay, we're gonna define this role that maybe delegates or operators of the DAO can do within our governance structure.

[00:31:01] Jack: So Gnosis Guild, close partners of kpk such fantastic researchers and developers and talent there. And they are really building out these kind of broad tools that can be used by so many different organizations across the industry. And what kpk does is we build on top of that, we have something within our technology stack called the permissions layer.

[00:31:23] Jack: And that is a umbrella term that captures a range of different technologies and services that help develop permissions specifically for treasury management. So if you go to try and configure your own Zodiac Roles Modifier contract, if you're not, you know, a very effective Solidity dev, I think you're gonna have a hard time kind of understanding all of the nuances of the data that you need to submit to set it up, right?

[00:31:47] Jack: And even then you have that kind of risk of, have I done it wrong? Is this capable of being exploited? kpk has figured out kind of the playbook for asset management and we've built best practices around that. And so our permissions layer is a suite of tools predefined arrangements for smart contracts, APIs that allow you to automatically configure a permission without having to actually directly interact with the contract.

[00:32:12] Jack: And also libraries of predetermined permissions that we use all the time which we share publicly and freely. So anyone can say, okay, if I wanna set up a permission for using Aave, I'm just gonna take kpk's template. I'm not gonna think too hard about how to do it myself. We just want to make it as accessible and usable as possible.

[00:32:29] Jack: And we see this as really an industry standard where, you know, kpk's using it every day for our treasury management, but we want all the DAOs that we're working with to have access to these tools and feel confident using them themselves so that really anyone across the industry can use permission safely, but also not have to go through the headache of becoming a top tier Solidity dev to, to figure out the risks there.

[00:32:49] Jack: And long term, the way I kind of see this going is kpk will continue to build out this kind of treasury management specific approach to permissions. Gnosis Guild will continue to build out the broader ecosystem of tools that can be used alongside and make them easier for everyone to use. And really, they're great compliments to each other and we love kind of working together to help all of the industry level up its security. 

[00:33:09] Umar: That's amazing. And so these tools that you're saying anyone can access, is it what you're calling the DeFi Kit, this open source code base? Or that's something different? 

[00:33:20] Jack: Yeah, absolutely. DeFi Kit is a free open source, code base. It's actually the library of kind of permissions that we have.

[00:33:27] Jack: We then also have kind of API services, which you can dial into and access. We also go beyond permissions and we actually have a set of library for transactions as well. So, you know, it's one thing to build the permission, but then you also need a transaction that will go through the permission, so you can come to kpk and you can get both for free through our open source code basis.

[00:33:46] Umar: Perfect. Now I think we've reached the part where Jack, you're gonna be sharing your screen. So we, I've had to wait 92, 93 episodes, to do this for the first time. So if you're currently just listening to the episode on Spotify or on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, you can actually see the video, on Apple Podcasts, you cannot, but you at this point right now, just recommend you to look at your screen because Jack will be sharing what they've built like what kind of reports they've built at kpk for or rather, Jack, I'll let you go through like which DAOs you want to show. 

[00:34:22] Jack: Awesome. Okay. So as a bit of an intro just talk a bit about my background.

[00:34:26] Jack: I came into DeFi as a part-time degen and on the side of a normal career and started getting involved with different DAOs. And the way I actually got into financial reporting for DAOs was through contributing to Beefy DAO.

[00:34:39] Jack: Beefy is the onchain yield optimizer from years back that has continued to dominate the market in terms of offering over a thousand different products and over 30 different chains.

[00:34:49] Jack: And so it's product that a lot of people know and love. And one that had a lot of room for kind of interesting financial reporting and contributions, but which is a bit smaller than some of the kind of behemoths of the industry. So it was a great place for me to cut my teeth and Beefy is what ultimately led me to kpk and getting more involved with people at the very cutting edge of the industry, managing very large DAO treasuries.

[00:35:11] Jack: So what I wanna do here is I wanna show you a bit about how kpk thinks about financial reporting. Then I wanna delve back into kind of how Beefy does its financial reporting and ultimately look at one of the tools that is really critical for Beefy's financial reporting, which is Octav. I know are a sponsor of the show.

[00:35:28] Jack: Matt's a good friend and they're a fantastic team. So I'd love to just give you guys a bit of a preview as to how we use Octav.

[00:35:35] Jack: But starting back with kpk, I'm now showing a screen from kpk's website reports.kpk.io which showcases what we call our DeFi Treasury network. That is the selection of different DeFi organizations where KPK is actively managing funds.

[00:35:52] Jack: And when I say managing funds, I don't mean custodying, but I mean submitting transactions through permissions. As I described in detail in this episode.

[00:35:59] Jack: Across these different DAOs, there are different sort of proportions of funds allocated into DeFi. So not every DAO is kind of like, I just want to go ape in the full $455 million treasury into DeFi.

[00:36:13] Jack: Instead often part of it is held in reserve. And so on this page, we show the non-custodial assets under management, which is the term for how many assets we're managing within the treasury for each organization, and then a percentage showing which proportion of those funds is allocated to DeFi.

[00:36:30] Jack: As well as how much those allocated funds are generating in the last month of their operations. So you can see here there's a really wide range in terms of what DAOs have and are using. Gnosis, which was our kind of first client has one of the largest treasuries in DeFi. Over 50% of it, 60% in practice is deployed into DeFi and it's covering a huge amount of their operating costs.

[00:36:54] Jack: It's really material to their day-to-day operations. On the other hand, you look further down the list and fantastic DAOs like Nexus Mutual which provide coverage products across the industry. They have a $7 million non-custodial assets under management treasury, where we are allocating just under 50% and generating about $27,000 per month.

[00:37:15] Jack: For each of these kpk has adopted a common reporting standard. So you can click on any of these names, dive in, and you can pick reports from any year, any month, throughout the history of our management and phrase them in terms of USD or in terms of Ether and this is to provide a really common standard and start to set impressions across the industry of what good practices look like in terms of financial reporting.

[00:37:41] Jack: Now every organization is different. Every income statement and balance sheet is different. So we can't expect that we can condense the full complexity of these organizations down to a standard format. Instead, we're thinking about what are some of the common heuristics that people use to kind of get at the meat of what a treasury is and what, what's going on in it.

[00:37:59] Jack: So we look at things like the categories of tokens that a DAO has. Stablecoins, Ether, Gnosis, it's native token, GNO, and also Safe, which is a sister project, that Gnosis incubated. We look at the kinds of blockchains that they're using. Gnosis, it's just split between Gnosis Chain and Ethereum mainnet. We look at the different kinds of operational uses they have for these funds.

[00:38:23] Jack: Are they deployed into DeFi? Are they used for core business operations, or are they just held in treasury? As a reserve? The reports then break down kind of the, the balances of the different tokens and their values and shows the kind of variation over time in these, in these great charts.

[00:38:40] Jack: So we're sort of saying for the last month there was a significant increase in the market value of Gnosis treasury but there have been decreases caused by outcomes for operations expenditure basically, and for fees relating to rebasing pools and tokens. We've also had some inflows of rewards and operating income.

[00:39:01] Jack: Ultimately this has ended up in a balance of $456million for Gnosis this month. You could go back through years of these reports on Gnosis and it's really interesting to do so to kind of see how they've approached their treasury management at different times and adapted. And also how much the treasury has grown in that time and the impact that active treasury management has had on their performance.

[00:39:20] Jack: I think one of the most interesting things that kpk does is look in detail at the different positions that DAOs have, particularly DAOs who are heavily invested into DeFi. So Gnosis, you can see here, there's 64 different positions totaling $134 million worth of DeFi positions. And that was generating I think close to half a million last month.

[00:39:42] Jack: And the market value was changing by $14.5 million. So these are really significant figures. These are whole DAO Treasuries kind of moving each month on Gnosis.

[00:39:51] Jack: And kpk zooms in at each individual position, you know, balance of weETH pool with wrapped ETH boosted in Aave and how that has performed over time.

[00:40:02] Jack: And you could go back and you can track each and every one of the positions that we've deployed Gnosis throughout history to see how they've performed. It's really a treasure mine. If you are looking at a specific thing, let's say for example, I wanted to know how EuroE, the Monerium token has been adopted by Gnosis treasury.

[00:40:20] Jack: I can go through and I can search every single report by blockchain, by protocol in order to find the assets that I want and easily grab that data. It's all just there for the taking. But I would say that kpk's reports are kind of a best attempt to capture a standard that meets the whole of the industry.

[00:40:39] Jack: And there's a lot that kind of still we want to improve on over time. You'll see that these are very numerically driven. There's not a lot of kind of written narrative in these reports and what's more, they tend to look quite standard each month because they follow the same reporting format. So it does take quite an analytical mind to sit down and think, okay, how has this changed over time?

[00:40:56] Jack: What are the big influencing factors? And I think for a lot of DAOs, you know, if you're going to the trouble of financial reporting, you probably think, I'm not just gonna jump straight into the standard that I see kpk is doing, I'm gonna think about something a bit more bespoke.

[00:41:09] Jack: And so that's where we come onto Beefy.

[00:41:11] Jack: And kind of how Beefy has done its financial reporting over time. So this is our 2025 Q1 report that was released about three months ago and it's, you'll see immediately, it's a very different style of financial reporting. First of all, it's quarterly, four reports a year. That's what you get.

[00:41:28] Jack: It's a glossy PDF, you know, designed to flick through. And for investors to really get to terms with how Beefy's done over the last quarter. We could provide a written sort of almost token holders letter at the start, which details kind of performance. Some Dune dashboards and other interesting sources and you see in these kind of token holders letters things like the activities over the last month and the things that we're looking forward to in future months for the rest of the year.

[00:41:53] Jack: And then we come to a very classic income statement and balance sheet combination. Obviously made with specific accounts to suit Beefy's own needs and not to just fit in with generic DeFi reporting standards but which really shows how we think about the money that's flowing through Beefy DAO and what it's being used for.

[00:42:12] Jack: So you'll see some of these categories here, you know, have names that you'd never see in traditional financial reports. Zap Income, Gauge Vote Incentive Income, Boost Income. These are all kind of different product lines that Beefy has different activities that Beefy does which are accounted for separately and which are community and token holders know a lot about.

[00:42:32] Jack: But which it takes a bit of time to kind of unpick and understand, which does make it a little bit more complicated than the reports that kpk does.

[00:42:40] Umar: Sorry to interrupt you, obviously this is prepared on a cash basis, right? This is not accrual basis accounting. 

[00:42:46] Jack: No, exactly.There's no accrual elements to it. It's as simple as possible cash counting and in terms of the balance sheet, you'll see again that there are large holdings in specific crypto assets, such as the native token of Beefy, which is ticker BIFI. So we are actively counting that as a current asset as opposed to treating it almost like a reserve of unissued tokens.

[00:43:09] Jack: Unissued shares would be the proxy I think in TradFi. So some very different approaches to accounting treatment here, but quite a kind of comparable to traditional finance. Quite a standardized balance sheet for Beefy. The remainder of the report is then the kind of detailed notes that you would expect to see in any kind of 10Q or 10K.

[00:43:26] Jack: When we were creating this, we were really thinking, you know, what do our token holders want to see and what are sophisticated investors gonna look at and think, okay, these guys understand finance, they have a sophisticated operation, we feel confident in their skills. So we do things like breaking down the income across all the different chains that Beefy operated on over the quarter.

[00:43:46] Jack: Getting into a really granular level of detail so that token holders can look at this and say, okay, wow, look at that significant growth over the quarter in X, Y and Z chain. We can really see a trend here, which suggests Beefy is gonna perform well in the future. It's a really detailed level of financial data, but again, this is quite inaccessible, I think for a lot of DeFi.

[00:44:06] Jack: It's 18 pages of really detailed notes on every little bit of Beefy operation and we've heard feedback from some token holders that they look at the first few pages, they say, you know, earnings are looking good, balance sheets growing, perfect we'll invest and that's all they need. But for us, it's become something where we really hold ourselves to a high standard and don't really wanna grow back from that now.

[00:44:26] Jack: So it just shows the kind of contrast across DeFi between different types of reporting standards and ultimately there is no, you know, one right or wrong way, unless you are kind of regulated in a country where you really need to abide by specific reporting requirements. But for us it's a decision, you know, what kind of level of transparency and information do you wanna show?

[00:44:45] Jack: And Beefy is probably the reports that I'm proudest of in the industry just because they really take it to a mature level that a lot of organizations wouldn't even dream of doing.

[00:44:53] Umar: I was not wrong in the beginning to say that. I'm speaking to one of those sharpest minds in the space.

[00:45:00] Jack: I appreciate that. Thank you. As you can see, it's been a lot of work over many years to kind of get to the point where Beefy is at this level of sophistication. So we really just wanna keep that going. I guess maybe it's a good time to switch gears and talk about how we plan to do that in the future with Octav.

[00:45:12] Jack: Unless you have any questions.

[00:45:13] Umar: Exactly. So yeah. Maybe show people like all these figures that they're currently seeing, like in the balance sheet, income statement, how did you arrive to these figures? 

[00:45:24] Jack: So yeah, when we started out, we were literally just like pulling data off of block explorers, looking through every transaction and, you know, in a spreadsheet this looks like this kind of income, this looks like that kind of income.

[00:45:35] Jack: You know, it's all verifiable onchain, but it was a lot of work and we've used a couple of different providers since then. But the current provider that we use, Octav has really helped to kind of change the game. So Octav is a data platform essentially for onchain activities. And that data can manifest as portfolios, like what I'm showing on screen now, or it can manifest in transaction level data which you can review, categorize, aggregate, and report on.

[00:46:04] Jack: Octav has kind of grown a lot in the last kind of year or so, adding a lot of different features. They're one of the few kind of organizations in the industry that's really being driven by what their customers want and need. So when we first started looking into the solution, we saw that we, they have these long sheets of transactions that looked pretty accurate in terms of pricing, lots of information in detail, you know, helpful.

[00:46:27] Jack: But I said to Matt, the CEO and Founder, I said, like, this is just basically the same as a block explorer. We're gonna have to pull all of this off. We're gonna have to add our own labels, we're gonna have to sort this all out. You know, it's great that you priced it, but you know, we're not adding a huge amount of saving in terms of our time and effort here.

[00:46:42] Jack: And Matt said, all right well what would make that better? And I was talking about kind of proxies and analogies from other kind of accounting systems that I've used in the past. And I said, you know, really what we want is we want subledgers and accounts that we can attach to the different transactions.

[00:46:56] Jack: We wanna be able to basically label everything and sort in an aggregator. And so he went away and two months later, he was Jack, Jack. I've got something you've gotta see that's gonna blow your mind. They built this, this whole automation suite in like only a couple of months. And the automation suite is just basic automated rules.

[00:47:14] Jack: But they cover every different component of the transactions on Octav, and they allow you to flexibly create any kind of rules that you want. So for us, we, we sit there and say every month, okay, we need to separate out all of the kind of bridging transactions because that's just moving money from one chain to another.

[00:47:29] Jack: But they just appear as like inflows and outflows on the different chains. We need a way to kind of categorize them. So we spoke to Octav. How can we capture these transactions? And they helped us to figure out the right kind of rule set that we could include to automate this process. And so I'm not gonna scroll through and show you all the rules because we have a lot of custom ones below that we've worked really hard on.

[00:47:49] Jack: But the impact that it has is you then start to look at your transactions and you see the little lines labeling, the colorful dots labeling the different transactions that Octav has identified. And you'll see here every single transaction is identified. I haven't been through the system today and done anything with it.

[00:48:08] Jack: I just kind of refreshed it, you know, brought in the new transactions. And the custom rules have just sorted through everything and told us what looks like an airdrop, what looks like different forms of income. This is Zap revenue. Literally, probably 90% of the transactions that we have are now just automatically categorized without a single finger lifted.

[00:48:29] Jack: You can go and you can select the number of uncategorized transactions. In fact, let me show you let's look at this month, June, 2025 and select the uncategorized transactions. We have 2,352 transactions here and with Octav's automated labeling, we have only 243 uncategorized transactions.

[00:48:51] Jack: So that is a significant reduction in what we need to do each month to keep on top of our books. Most of these as well, will probably be automated when we sit down to kind of look through the month's data. There's a lot of these already. I can see consistent deposits from the same addresses.

[00:49:06] Jack: That will be very easy to automate and usually by the time we're done with automations, it's like 0.1% of our transactions that actually need to be manually looked at and so this means for us, we are sitting down each month to kind of think about how we build our income statement and our balance sheet.

[00:49:21] Jack: And we're saying, okay, well we have all of the strategy revenue just there. Let's just sort by all of the existing revenue that we've got and let's see what we need to do with this. We've got 1,938 transactions for our revenue this month automatically categorized. We just need to figure out if any of them aren't priced and then we can aggregate them and get the statistics that we need.

[00:49:46] Jack: Now, Octav also takes this a step further, which I can't really show you but they have a fantastic API. So with the API, you can actually pull out your private notes and details on these transactions. And I can pull out all of these, you know, zap transactions like I sorted for here and perform any kind of arbitrary logic on them in my own development environment.

[00:50:05] Jack: So we've built reports, we've built scripts that pull out all kinds of particular statistics and this can go even further, like we're thinking, could we build a discord bot with this? Could we build like a Twitter account that's just automatically spewing out the kind of financial performance of our DAO with Octav?

[00:50:22] Jack: This is a real end-to-end data solution where we can really do anything and because they're a team of builders who are really just looking to try and help DeFi projects to grow, we know that they're gonna have our back to produce interesting solutions and to really push the industry forwards. So I'm gonna sound like the biggest shill in the world to Octav after this, but I honestly can't recommend enough having a strong data provider like this.

[00:50:44] Umar: No, You're right. To, To show their work and I mean, they're a fantastic team. They've been very supportive of what we do also at The Accountant Quits and Matt is fantastic. He's been also an instructor at, at the Crypto Accounting Academy, and it's great to show, like, I've been promoting Oktav for a few months now, but it's actually great to have you and show what it can do and how it's a very good tool for DAOs, for DeFi protocols to use.

[00:51:09] Umar: So I'm very happy that you showed this and from here Jack, like until are you using an accounting software or how here you would export all your transactions into, let's say if you're preparing your financial statements as of 31st December, 2024. How would then that line item that you showed us earlier in, in the Beefy report, how, how does that come about?

[00:51:36] Jack: Yeah, we're not using any traditional accounting software. We found that the cost and the difficulty of integrating them with crypto native software was often so high that it just didn't warrant it. It was easier for us to just take the aggregate transactions that Octav has already categorized and thought about and to just do the process ourselves.

[00:51:56] Jack: So, like I said earlier, we've got scripts that pull from their API, they aggregate together the transactions and come up with the statistics that we want. We use this to then build up our own income statement, balance sheet and our financial records. But we really, you know, because we're a, a decentralized organization that doesn't have a basis in any one particular country, we're not looking at kind of completing our books for particular regulatory reasons.

[00:52:18] Jack: Instead, we're looking at what is the most transparent thing that we can do for our organization. Really we think that having this direct connection between Octav, which you know, can display this data broadly and can be shared more publicly and our financial reports, which are purely public, you know, are really minimizing the middleman, minimizing what happens behind the curtain people can see that one flows directly into the other with a bit of manual work in between.

[00:52:44] Jack: Hopefully over time there will be better software that allows people to do this all with just a click of a button. That would certainly save me a few hours of the month every month. But for now I think Octav out is really the only tool that we need. 

[00:52:55] Umar: But also, like Jack, I think you can be super proud of really you're pioneering like a way for all the other DAOs that will follow to on how they can actually report to their community in a transparent way.

[00:53:09] Umar: And yeah, just having you on the pod today has been fantastic to show how this is done. 

[00:53:16] Jack: Oh, it's been a real pleasure to join you and I've really enjoyed it, so thank you for having me.

[00:53:21] Umar: I mean this has been quite comprehensive. 

[00:53:23] Umar: We can wrap up the episode and maybe on just sharing, like for people listening, Founders DAO contributors, if you had any advice to share on what we've been speaking today around on chain asset management, around financial reporting for DAOs. How would you summarize this episode today? 

[00:53:45] Jack: Yeah, I guess I would say that like, it's scary when you first look at all of your onchain transactions and think how are we ever gonna report on this?

[00:53:52] Jack: But it's not actually as hard as you think. The data in, in crypto is really good and if you can just get some support from organizations that know what they're doing or take some advice from people who've done this before, it's really not that hard. I guess also I would just sort of put a call out there for all the accountants and finance professionals who are kind of coming into this industry and thinking about how to make their mark.

[00:54:13] Jack: You know, crypto really changes a lot of the core, financial assets and primitives that we've had for millennia. There are a lot of just completely new things that we've never been able to do before.

[00:54:24] Jack: And for an accountant, I kind of see this as like, you know, it's the Renaissance in Florence. It's a real time where technology is allowing complete social change, and we can have the chance here to be at the forefront to define new ways of doing accounting, to make it so that the income statements and balance sheets a hundred or a thousand years from now, look, nothing like the titles once we've had to dig through 10, 20 years of our career. So this is a great opportunity and anybody who's looking to kind of push accounting forward through DeFi and through crypto, reach out to me. Let's do it together. I'm excited to take this forward. 

[00:55:00] Umar: Perfect. I hope you'll have a lot of people reaching out to you. Because Jack, if I'm not mistaken, do you have an accounting background?

[00:55:06] Jack: I'm actually a lawyer by training funnily enough. But I did like a lot of financial litigation. I worked in competition law or antitrust, which is very kind of economic and finance driven. So that's how I got into of doing a lot of accounting myself. Yeah, people are often surprised to hear that, given how much I love accounting, I guess I maybe made the wrong choice earlier in my career.

[00:55:28] Umar: Perfect. Jack, it's been a great episode. Thanks a lot for coming in. If people want to, or rather, I actually forgot. There's the last question, which I usually ask to my guests before they leave is, do you have a favorite quote or a maxim that you live by? Not necessarily live by, but maybe you frequently repeat it to yourself?

[00:55:48] Jack: Just seeing if I can search it up to get it right. I really like the Warren Buffet quote which is just a classic, trite quote for any kind of finance buff, but it takes, you know, a lifetime to build a reputation and five minutes to ruin it and so if you are thinking about credibility and transparency in anything that you do, you've gotta be thinking long term.

[00:56:08] Jack: You've gotta be trying to avoid the shortcuts and the small mistakes. You've gotta be taking this seriously every second and every moment.

[00:56:14] Umar: That's a really good one to live by and if people want to reach out to you, Jack on socials, they wanna learn more about kpk, where should they go?

[00:56:24] Jack: Yeah, you can go to my website to find out more about me, which is jackgale.xyz, or find me on Twitter at @iamjackgale. For kpk, I would definitely recommend checking out kpk.io, the website and kpk_io on Twitter. We have a big presence there and we're sharing lots of information about the case studies and the works that we're doing.

[00:56:44] Jack: And we'd love to hear from people. So there's a contact us form on the website if you'll wanna reach out and learn more about what we do or think about contributing to it as well. 

[00:56:53] Umar: Perfect. Well, thanks a lot for coming in today, Jack, and we'll be in touch.

[00:56:58] Jack: Thanks so much Umar. It's been great.