Kevin Ngo from Polywrap on DAO Accounting

[00:00:00] Umar: Welcome to The Accountant Quits, brought to you by Request Finance an all in one platform for crypto organizations and freelancers to easily manage and track their invoices, salaries, and expenses in a compliant way. On this podcast, we discuss how blockchain will impact the accounting profession and how accountants should prepare themselves for the future of work.

[00:00:23] Umar: My name’s Umar your host, and even if some might refer to me as the accountant gone rogue, my job is to provide you with the blockchain knowledge you need, that will be relevant for the accounting industry as a whole.

[00:00:37] Umar: Welcome to Episode 29, where we discuss accounting for DAOs. The legal nature of DAOs is a gray zone, and there’s no playbook for creating a legally compliant DAO yet, but accounting can nevertheless be done right.

[00:00:50] Umar: The accounting equation is universal and accounting principles are timeless. The only difference now is the addition of blockchain technology and that now transactions for the DAO reside on chain. With the number of DAOs expected to soar in the years to come and with many DAO founders struggling to provide an accurate picture of their financials to the community, accountants are set to play a key role in the adoption of DAOs.

[00:01:15] Umar: To discuss DAO accounting today, I have the pleasure to have Kevin Ngo, the DAO Accountant at Polywrap DAO. Kevin has forged his own path into Web3 by wearing many hats at Polywrap and using the emerging Web3 technological stack for the DAOs accounting.

[00:01:31] Umar: In this episode today, we will learn the difference between managerial accounting and compliance accounting for a DAO, how Web2 accounting differs from DAO accounting, DAO budgeting and spending, challenges for DAO accounting, skills for an accountant to bridge from Web2 to Web3 and much more.

[00:01:51] Umar: Kevin welcome to the show and thanks for making the time to be here.

[00:01:56] Kevin: Yeah, thanks Umar for having me.

[00:01:58] Umar: To start could you tell us a little bit more about your story of how you started working in accounting firms early on in your career, and then how you went on your own path to work as a freelancer in tech companies?

[00:02:12] Kevin: Yeah, absolutely.

[00:02:14] Kevin: So I started my career doing general ledger and financial reporting type of accounting. I did that for a technology startup in California for about three years before moving from private accounting to public accounting. So I worked at a mid-sized CPA firm, preparing taxes for individuals and larger corporations. I did that for about a year.

[00:02:38] Kevin: During those, the first three or four years, I just felt that the work was very repetitive and, you know, with accounting, like with every new company, once you get there and you kind of understand their month end process, it becomes the same thing over and over and over. So I wanted to kind of, I started to have a feeling of wanting to experience like different industries and different type of work.

[00:03:03] Kevin: I worked after that mid-sized accounting firm, I went to work for an e-commerce startup, but at the same time I was building an accounting business on the side and that e-commerce startup was totally supportive of it. I worked for them for two years while, you know, building my client base. And eventually I spun out on my own and just worked, you know, as a freelancer for all these technology companies.

[00:03:31] Kevin: And yeah, that’s how I got my start in as an accountant. And during that time I was a CPA helping clients with things like financial reporting, tax returns and so on.

[00:03:43] Umar: And from there, how did you then get into blockchain? Because I do remember when we spoke earlier, you also shared that you learn a bit of coding.

[00:03:53] Kevin: Yeah. So in 2018, while I was working at my coworking space in LA, Consensys, which is a blockchain company, came by to LA and opened their office in my coworking space. And that’s the first time I really got exposed to Ethereum or anything blockchain related. And they had a, they had an opening event where they invited people to network with them.

[00:04:17] Kevin: And the very first person I talked to was the one that was working on their blockchain accounting software called Balanc3. And it was just so like revolutionary for me, like they were, they were bringing up the concept of triple entry accounting, which, you know, like it’s just a new concept. We’ve been doing double entry accounting for so long.

[00:04:37] Kevin: And so I, I just wanted to learn more about, you know, blockchain and Ethereum and, yeah, that was 2018, you know, work got in the way and I kind of left it, left it off, but in 2020 at the start of COVID, my business started to slow down and I took that opportunity to learn JavaScript programming. I was really inspired by the engineers that were working at my client’s company.

[00:05:07] Kevin: How they were building all these cool things. and so, yeah, that really got me interested in programming. I learned JavaScript while doing my business and eventually I winded down the business to focus more on programming.

[00:05:23] Umar: Wow. So, all right, so that’s 2020. You start learning how to code and then.

[00:05:29] Umar: How does that lead then to you joining Polywrap DAO? How did you find out about Polywrap and maybe what was so compelling to you about DAOs that made you think that I want to go full-time now into DAO accounting?

[00:05:42] Kevin: Yeah, so I was preparing for a career change to be a software engineer. I took all of 2020 to stay JavaScript and, you know, late at night I would read like the Ethereum white paper and learn more about blockchain.

[00:05:56] Kevin: So by the beginning of 2021, I wanted to join a blockchain company. I didn’t even know what a DAO was. So I looked on crypto job postings. And the first thing I saw was Polywrap I actually applied without knowing that they’re a DAO, I joined their discord and told the founder that I was applying. So yeah, I didn’t know what a DAO was at the time, but once I found out, like, and learn more about it, it really grew on me.

[00:06:26] Umar: Wow. I love it. I love your story. And now could you tell us a bit more what’s Polywrap and maybe what your role consists of there? I said in the beginning you do wear many hats over there.

[00:06:38] Kevin: Yeah. So Polywrap is a doubt that is more on the technical side.

[00:06:43] Kevin: We have developers building a Web3 development tool. And this tool helps you build a certain type of SDK that can execute on any environment. So today a lot of Web3 is limited to the browser, but with a Polywrap built SDK, you can bring Web3 outside of the browser. So imagine some of these popular Web3 protocols being run in enterprise backends or IOT devices and so on.

[00:07:12] Kevin: So that’s the vision of Polywrap, to make Web3 everywhere. And I joined Polywrap as a developer relations engineer. So what that is is that I’m talking to a lot of these early users of our tool chain. So people like Gnosis or a Uniswap and kind of explain them what our tool chain is and having them get started, building the SDKs with it, which we call wrappers and basically act as a technical support for them or connecting them to our engineers.

[00:07:44] Kevin: I also did some software development at Polywrap, so front end development for some of our demos. And one day, like one of our contributors showed me a spreadsheet with his forecasted, like operations. And I just looked at it and I felt like I could apply my CPA skills to it. And, you know, I helped Polywrap with it.

[00:08:07] Kevin: And that’s how I really got into accounting. I joined a bunch of other discords like FWB and found out like no other DAOs are really doing DAO accounting. And yeah, that’s how I kind of felt like I found my place in the DAO space.

[00:08:22] Umar: All right. That’s a good segue-way on to the main topic of the day Accounting for DAOs.

[00:08:26] Umar: So I mentioned in the introduction that we can break it down between managerial accounting and compliance accounting. Managerial accounting would consist more of the monthly financial operations involving preparing like PNL, bringing the on chain transactions from Etherscan for example to the accounting software and broadly communicating the financial health of the DAO to its members.

[00:08:52] Umar: Compliance accounting on the other hand would refer to, well, the annual filing of taxes for example. Could you elaborate on these two on the distinction between managerial and compliance, but speak mostly of the managerial side, accounting of DAOs.

[00:09:11] Kevin: Yeah, absolutely. You know, you, you described it really well, but managerial accounting today for DAOs is being able to there’s no, there shouldn’t be any like central manager in a DAO, like the manager is the DAO community and the DAO members or token holders.

[00:09:29] Kevin: And they kind of make decisions on things like governance and the way the DAO should operate. And so they should be the users of any kind of financial information. So with that being said, like managerial accounting would be for a DAO would be gathering the Etherscan transactions, journalizing them and putting them into these financial statements that tell the story of the DAO’s operations.

[00:09:54] Kevin: And in a way that’s simple enough for the DAO community to understand. And you want, you want me to go into like compliance type of accounting?

[00:10:02] Umar: Yeah, the compliance side of it, like I said, it would be for the annual filing, would be preparation of the financials with, with respect to the proper accounting standards, like US GAAP or IFRS, I believe.

[00:10:15] Kevin: Yeah, exactly. These are more for, crypto companies or companies with more like a legal structure, maybe like a C corporation that needs to prepare their financial statements denominated in a USD currency so that they can file their annual taxes or, you know, show these financial statements to investors or people who may need them.

[00:10:40] Umar: Now, I want you to help us compare and contrast Web2 accounting and DAO accounting. You have an accounting background. You’ve practiced for many years as an accountant. What are some of the notable differences between Web2 accounting and DAO accounting?

[00:10:56] Kevin: Yeah, that’s a great question. The first thing that is noticeable to me is that there is a huge lack of a DAO accounting tools today.

[00:11:05] Kevin: Like in Web2 accounting, you have so many tools such as QuickBooks, Xero, NetSuite to do all these accounting. But with DAO accounting, like you can’t just connect your wallets to QuickBooks and have it sync all the transactions into it. So, yeah, that’s the first thing I noticed is that like a lot of the tools that I’m using today, I had to build from scratch on Google sheets to gather all these transactions from Etherscan, which acts kind of like the bank statement in web2 accounting to categorize them and to build logic into these Google sheets that can map it into map these transactions into financial statements. Another big difference I noticed is that now DAO accounting is transparent to the community.

[00:11:50] Kevin: Whereas in Web2, when you’re there in the accounting department, you’re kind of siloed off from the rest of the other teams like engineering or marketing, and they don’t have visibility into the day-to-day of accounting or the financial statements really. And in the public company, you might not get it until like quarterly, when the accounting team reports, the financial statements.

[00:12:13] Kevin: With DAO accounting transactions are live, right. So whenever money comes out of the DAO’s treasury, it’s instantly shown on, the transactions instantly shown on Etherscan. And so, yeah, there’s like the timing difference and the transparency, so now that the rest of the DAO, the rest of the world can see all the transactions that you do.

[00:12:35] Umar: Now when we speak of a real time accounting, this is a concept that I guess before blockchain would have been, sounded a bit elusive, but like you said, since a DAOs, pressure is now on chain and all payments are happening on chain, can a DAO in this case offer real time accounting?

[00:12:54] It’s still difficult to do real-time accounting. You can have real time display of the transactions as they’re happening on Etherscan, but that doesn’t give you visibility into what these transactions were for. For example, on Etherscan, you can only see, for every transaction, the date, the recipient and the amount and some other information, but you don’t know if it was for, you know, contributor payments or, you know, software expense for so on.

[00:13:22] Kevin: And so that’s where the accounts comes in, where they either need to manually categorize these transactions, or they need to build some logic into their accounting software to categorize.

[00:13:34] Umar: So in a ways that, is it even more manual right now? We have to tag everything manually. I mean, it would be the case previously we would take a bank statement and like input one by one transactions on the accounting software.

[00:13:48] Kevin: It can be manual. And so if you think about Web2 accounting, when you link in the bank transactions, you can set rules for them. So if it’s a certain amount or if it’s to a certain vendor that you’re paying to, like you can set it the rule, like let’s say like they’ll always be office supplies for example. You can do the same thing in DAO accounting syncing in the Etherscan transactions.

[00:14:13] Kevin: You have to be pretty good with Excel to kind of like build these rules, or use a software. I believe like Cryptio, which is able to, you’re able to set rules based on the wallet that you’re sending to. So there’s some ways to automate these categorizations, but the DAO tooling could be a little bit better today.

[00:14:33] Umar: Yeah, I agree. And moving on to DAO budgeting, I think I said this in the introduction that the DAO founding team may not always have an accounting background. And one of your key responsibilities in your role with Polywrap is to plan the budget and monitor the actual spending of the DAO. What are some of the key considerations you’ve learned for this exercise and some of the useful metrics from on chain data that the DAO should be tracking?

[00:15:00] Kevin: So DAO budgeting is like, my process for it is preparing the spreadsheet with how much we’re currently spending today, like actual spend. And then also we have room the, the amount we have for each month to continue spending. And then w we do adjustment of this based on how much we want our runway to be.

[00:15:24] Kevin: And so I present the spreadsheet to the community. Actually yesterday, where it’s so funny in my whole life, like I’ve been sharing this just with like finance people in the company. And yesterday I was sharing it with engineers and marketing people and trying to have them understand, you know, our spend.

[00:15:41] Kevin: And I think for them, like, it’s easier to understand if it’s not like the formal financial statements, but instead, it’s just, how much should we spend each month? So that was easier for them to digest. And so in terms of, you know, on chain metrics today, we’re not doing too many of that, but you know, you can imagine just ratios that you would have in Web2.

[00:16:06] Kevin: Like how much contributor expense are you spending relative to revenue or relative to your monthly cashflow? So just, it depends on a DAO by DAO basis, but that would be an example of when one financial ratio that you could use.

[00:16:22] Umar: And how does that happen? You guys hold a community call on Discord where like all members jump in and people are ofcourse may be allowed to freely ask questions with what’s happening to actual spending. Maybe if we’re overspending or underspending.

[00:16:38] Kevin: Yeah, absolutely. So it happens on our Discord. Once a week, we have a strategy and operations meeting where our token holders come and they would learn about everything that’s basically non development related. And a big part of this is me just sharing my screen and walking them through the financials and explaining them and showing them how our financial model works and how accounting works.

[00:17:02] Kevin: And yeah, they could ask any questions. Our budget, eventually this budget sheet will go into a governance proposal to be approved by the DAO for each quarter so that we know, you know, if we’re over, under spending each quarter. But yeah, that would be our process today.

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[00:19:13] Umar: Moving on to the challenges of DAO accounting. What are some of these challenges that you’ve noted today that most DAOs are facing in terms of accounting?

[00:19:23] Kevin: First, I would say like, not a lot of DAOs are doing accounting today. Not because it’s not important, but because they’re not just not aware of it and they’re not aware of how to do it.

[00:19:35] Kevin: But for me personally, I think the challenge, like I said, is DAO tooling. There just needs to be better tooling to automatically bring in Etherscan transactions, to set rules for them to convert them to a USD based so that you can have USD financials. And then the second is now the stakeholders is ranges like a bigger scope.

[00:19:57] Kevin: Meaning that before you were just presenting to people who are maybe more literate in accounting and finance terms. And now you had to present it to people who’ve never seen a financial statement before. So how to summarize that financial information for them in a way that they can digest and use to make a governance decisions and, you know, make informed decisions on, on voting on proposals and spend and things like that.

[00:20:25] Umar: I guess maybe it’s because also the accounting is maybe very simplistic right now. Like a lot of these DAOs, are they generating income? I mean, the expenses may be, are kind of direct. They don’t have to deal with maybe liability sums on their balance sheet, large receivable, which would be the case with normal Web2 organizations.

[00:20:47] Kevin: Yeah. I can’t speak for all DAOs, but the ones that I’ve you know, contributed to, they’ve either don’t make revenue yet, or they make so little revenue today, but you know, it’s not such a complicated process, but yeah, you’re right. The accounting would be pretty simple today in terms of concepts, it’s just a tool to do it, it’s it makes it a little bit more difficult.

[00:21:11] Umar: You shared your story in the beginning and I loved how you bridged from Web2 to Web3. I’ve had sort of a similar story. When I quit my accounting job for a long time, I wanted to get into crypto. I didn’t really know how to do it. Eventually, the podcast was what truly helped me to land a job in crypto.

[00:21:32] Umar: Of course, everyone will not be creating a podcast. So I want to ask you for an accountant looking to bridge from Web2 to Web3, like you’ve done, what are the Web3 knowledge that is, I would not say mandatory, but that is required for someone to hop onto Web3 and to be successful there?

[00:21:49] Kevin: Yeah. So the way I got started and got really interested in the potential of Web3 or DAO acounting is just playing with etherscan. Like it was my first time using it last year and you know, it kind of gave me like a new look on the potential of accounting. Cause like everything is transparent. Now you can see everyone’s balance, every single transaction and as a Web2 accountant and transitioning to Web3, I think you’d find that really interesting just to analyze some of that, those transactions and understand like how Etherscan works.

[00:22:25] Kevin: So I think that would be a great way to get started. And then yeah, just, just join a lot of DAOs and their Discords and try to learn more about, you know, what it means to be in the DAO, what it means to contribute to a DAO. Yeah. I think that would be like the accounting, well I mean the Web3 knowledge that you would need to kind of get started and find a way to succeed in DAO accounting.

[00:22:51] Umar: Yeah, completely. And I also want to mention that initially when I heard that one could contribute to DAOs, I didn’t really understand how I would be able to do that because I don’t have any technical skills. I thought I’d have to know how to code or I would have to, I would hear people speak about MakerDAO and Uniswap, I thought I don’t even have the crypto knowledge to be able to come to work there, but I’ve joined like DAOs that has nothing to do with any, like, you don’t need technical knowledge. I’ve contributed to write articles, for example, in a DAO. And for example, like Kevin, you can also contribute to a DAO by doing accounting work.

[00:23:33] Umar: So all the Web2 skills that you guys have, you can learn how to bridge that onto Web3.

[00:23:40] Umar: I want to touch a bit on contributor compensation working in a DAO. How should members approach being compensated by DAOs between choosing to receive the native token versus USD equivalent, and when to decide when to take the upside of the native token. That’s a tricky question.

[00:24:02] Kevin: Yeah. It depends on you actually, but based on your risk tolerance, I would say that there are so many DAOs that you can contribute today. So on the safe side, if you can like maybe join them and take the stable coin approach first, and then if you find a DAO that you like, and you feel like, you know, their, their vision aligns with, you know, what you care about and you really want to focus on this DAO and making it better and the project’s better, than at that point you can, you can lean more into their native token if you want to contribute to the DAO and, you know, add more value to the tokens that you’re receiving.

[00:24:43] Umar: Yeah I was also speaking to tax specialist and he was sharing a story of how back in 2017, when there was the ICO and the subsequent crash and how people who like accepted to be paid in those native tokens were left, like with significant amount of tax liability when we went in a bear market. Because your tax liability on your income arises at the time of receipt. So they were valued quite high, but then they were worth nothing. So that’s also a consideration for, I think people want accepting DAO native tokens is, that’s tricky, the ability to foresee whether we’ll go in a bear market.

[00:25:22] Umar: I don’t know what you think they, how to approach that. And maybe of course, like you said, is taking a good combination of both USD equivalent and the DAO native token.

[00:25:32] Kevin: Yeah, I would just try to take a combination of possible. Right? Like I think that like, whatever, again, it depends on your risk tolerance, but whatever’s the kind of like the safer approach. Like balancing between high reward versus high risk. So yeah.

[00:25:50] Umar: What are some of the DAO tools, I mean, tools for DAO accounting that you’ve used so far and that you recommend the most, you mentioned Cryptio in the beginning. Why is Cryptio a good software for DAO accounting, for example?

[00:26:04] Kevin: Yeah. So if you’re a DAO that is operating in multiple currencies, multiple cryptocurrencies, I think Cryptio is a great tool to calculate all the gains and losses on all your different currencies and help you denominate them into a USD base. So at that point, Cryptio can sync to a traditional accounting software like QuickBooks or Xero.

[00:26:30] Kevin: And like now you have all the gains and losses, you can create USD based financial statements. So I think it’s just a very organized way to categorize your transactions, calculate, gains, and losses, and sync them to a traditional accounting software. And for a lot of DAOs today, like that might be too much.

[00:26:50] Kevin: Like it might require too much like technical accounting expertise, but if that’s what you need, like if you need to create USD financial statements, and I think that’s like the best way to go today.

[00:27:00] Umar: I have a different question on the DAO contributor. When I’m contributing to a DAO, how should I be keeping a records of all the income I’ve earned in order for me to remain compliant?

[00:27:14] When I’m working for a DAO and sometimes completing bounties, there’s not really a way for me to invoice the DAO, right. I’m just completing the bounty and I’m getting paid in stable coin or the DAO native token.

[00:27:29] Umar: Is that something you’ve also noted and people discussing about this, like especially DAO contributors, freelancers?

[00:27:37] Kevin: Yeah, I’m not sure how other people are doing it. But personally, for me, I want to keep track of all the income that I’ve earned through the DAOs that I’ve contributed to. So what I’ve done is set up a specific wallet just for my DAO contribution work.

[00:27:54] Kevin: So this would be separate from me like buying a ton of NFTs or investing in different tokens. This would just be for contributions. So yeah, all of my work income would go into this wallet. And then when I’m doing my taxes, I use a tool called Cointracker and it allows me to label them all as everything in this wallet as income.

[00:28:17] Kevin: So it’s just a very like modular and clean approach for me to know like how much I’m making for that year.

[00:28:25] Okay. And this is a very good advice. So people have to separate their personal and their work wallet and not mix the two because yeah, when it comes tax season, it’s a headache to go and filter out the income you earn, working for DAO.

[00:28:40] Umar: Kevin, we are coming to the end of the episode. As closing thoughts, what would you like to end to summarize the whole episode today? Like you would have advice for DAO founders, how to simplify their accounting, that’s one and second to Web2 accountants working to work in Web3?

[00:29:00] Kevin: Yeah. So for DAO founders, I would say that one thing to simplify your accounting today is try to operate in as few cryptocurrencies as possible. So don’t pay your contributors in like a ton of different cryptocurrencies. It just complicates your account. So try to stick with stable coins or your DAOs native token, if possible, it’s going to build you a better foundation and a more simplified foundation when you’re building out accounting in the future.

[00:29:31] Kevin: And you’re thinking about things like financial planning, budgeting, and forecasting. So yeah. Simplify your operations as much as possible today in terms of, you know, the cryptocurrencies that you’re using.

[00:29:44] Kevin: And then for Web2 accountants, I would say, don’t be afraid to join a lot of Discords and ask if they could use your help in accounting, because most likely they will.

[00:29:56] Kevin: There’s not a lot of DAO accountants today. And your skills in Web2 accounting will transfer over. Like the accounting concepts, it’s still there, like the debits and credits, although the same type of financial statements, it’s just like the tooling that, that you need to use to kind of do this accounting is not there today. So it’s good to have like great Excel skills to build them. I would say like reach out to me, like if you need any help, like building these or any advice on DAO accounting. So I’m like more than happy to help. I feel like the best Web2 accountants are not doing DAO accounting today. So I would love to see, you know, more people in this space today.

[00:30:37] Umar: Wow. That’s really good advice. And it may sound like a simple, but given that you, Kevin, you sharing this, given that you’re a DAO accountant and that you’re telling people to come on Discord and ask team members, if they need accounting help, I think this is really useful for people who want to get into Web3 accounting.

[00:30:55] Umar: There’s a last question that I like asking to my guests is do you have a quote or a Maxim that you live by?

[00:31:02] Kevin: I try to find balance. I think it sounds cheesy, but there’s just so much going on in Web3 accounting that try to find, you know, work-life balance.

[00:31:11] Kevin: I think that’s just what I live by today. And it kind of helps me a lot. When I was younger, I was just so focused on where it can, now balancing the two, like work-life balance. I, I feel like I’m more productive and healthier.

[00:31:26] Umar: Yeah, I completely agree. Maybe I need, I need a bit of that advice right now. Kevin, it’s been really wonderful to have you today to speak about DAO accounting.

[00:31:38] Umar: There’s not a lot of content right now around how to do accounting for DAO and having you today, I think is really, really useful for both like DAO founders and future DAO accountants. Before we go, if people want to reach out to you, what’s the best way for them to do so?

[00:31:55] Kevin: Yeah, so the best way is on Twitter. So you can reach out to me on Twitter at kevinngo_la and my DMs are open. So just ask me any, any questions you have.

[00:32:09] Umar: Perfect. Thanks a lot, Kevin, for joining us.

[00:32:13] Kevin: Yeah, thanks for inviting me. And you know, it was really great connecting with you.

[00:32:17] Umar: I would like to thank everyone for listening to this episode. You will find all the links of the episode, show notes and transcripts on the website of The Accountant Quits at theaccountantquits.com. Please note that this content is for general information purposes only, and is not a substitute for consultation with professional advisors. If you do know anyone who could benefit from the episode and you care about them, please do share the episode with them.

[00:32:44] Umar: All the episodes available on Spotify, Apple podcasts and Google podcasts, and by leaving us a review and rating, you will support the channel and all your fellow accountants. In order to be notified each time we release a new episode, do follow us on Instagram and LinkedIn. We hope to have you with us next time. Bye. For now.